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澳洲国防杂志:苍龙PK科林斯毫无还手之力,日本潜艇无地区技术优势
送交者:  2016年04月08日07:38:22 于 [世界军事论坛] 发送悄悄话
澳洲国防杂志:苍龙PK科林斯毫无还手之力,日本潜艇无地区技术优势 home news articles land sea air joint jsf submarines c4i cyber defence policy defence support group defence industry defence budget adm editorials simulation international conference reports military life ADM editions interviews adm tv defence week Defence week 390-399 defence week 390 defence week 391 defence week 392 defence week 380-389 defence week 380 defence week 381 defence week 382 defence week 383 defence week 384 defence week 385 defence week 386 defence week 387 defence week 388 defence week 389 defence week 370-379 defence week 379 defence week 378 defence week 377 defence week 376 defence week 375 defence week 374 defence week 373 defence week 372 defence week 371 defence week 370 defence week 360-369 defence week 369 defence week 368 defence week 367 defence week 366 defence week 365 defence week 364 defence week 363 defence week 362 defence week 361 defence week 360 defence week 350-359 defence week 359 defence week 358 defence week 357 defence week 356 defence week 355 defence week 354 defence week 353 defence week 352 defence week 351 defence week 350 defence week 340-349 defence week 349 defence week 348 defence week 347 defence week 346 defence week 345 defence week 344 defence week 343 defence week 342 defence week 341 defence week 340 defence week 330-339 defence week 339 defence week 338 defence week 337 defence week 336 defence week 335 defence week 334 defence week 333 defence week 332 defence week 331 defence week 330 defence week 320-329 defence week 329 defence week 328 defence week 327 defence week 326 defence week 325 defence week 324 defence week 323 defence week 322 defence week 321 defence week 320 defence week 310-319 defence week 319 defence week 318 defence week 317 defence week 316 defence week 315 defence week 314 defence week 313 defence week 312 defence week 311 defence week 310 defence week 300-309 defence week 309 defence week 308 defence week 307 defence week 306 defence week 305 defence week 304 defence week 303 defence week 302 defence week 301 defence week 300 defence week 290-299 defence week 299 defence week 298 defence week 297 defence week 296 defence week 295 defence week 294 defence week 293 defence week 292 defence week 291 defence week 290 defence week 280-289 defence week 289 defence week 288 defence week 287 defence week 286 defence week 285 defence week 284 defence week 283 defence week 282 defence week 281 defence week 280 defence week 270-279 defence week 279 defence week 278 defence week 277 defence week 276 defence week 275 defence week 274 defence week 273 defence week 272 defence week 271 defence week 270 defence week 260-269 defence week 269 defence week 268 defence week 267 defence week 266 defence week 265 defence week 264 defence week 263 defence week 262 defence week 261 defence week 260 defence week 250-259 defence week 259 defence week 258 defence week 257 defence week 256 defence week 255 defence week 254 defence week 253 defence week 252 defence week 251 defence week 250 defence week 240-249 defence week 249 defence week 248 defence week 247 defence week 246 defence week 245 defence week 244 defence week 243 defence week 242 defence week 241 defence week 240 defence week 230-239 defence week 239 defence week 238 defence week 237 defence week 236 defence week 235 defence week 234 defence week 233 defence week 232 defence week 231 defence week 230 defence week 220-229 defence week 229 defence week 228 defence week 227 defence week 226 defence week 225 defence week 224 defence week 223 defence week 222 defence week 221 defence week 220 defence week 210-219 defence week 219 defence week 218 defence week 217 defence week 216 defence week 215 defence week 214 defence week 213 defence week 212 defence week 211 defence week 210 defence week 200-209 defence week 209 defence week 208 defence week 207 defence week 206 defence week 205 defence week 204 defence week 203 defence week 202 defence week 201 defence week 200 defence week 190-199 defence week 199 defence week 198 defence week 197 defence week 196 defence week 195 defence week 194 defence week 193 defence week 192 defence week 191 defence week 190 defence week 186-189 defence week 189 defence week 188 defence week 187 defence week 186 awards 2015 Awards 2014 awards 2013 awards 2012 awards 2011 awards 2010 awards 2009 awards 2008 awards events ADM Events all events event photos suppliers advertise Search here... GO > home » defence week » Defence week 390-399 » defence week 391 related content News: Japan ups the charm - Soryu sub to exercise with Navy News: Sea 1000 down to two? Unlikely. News: Japan bows to local build as skills fears quashed News: Japan makes announcement on Future Submarines more dwp 391» Land 400 Phase 2 rethink costs time and money for all Israel integrates indigenous C4 systems into F-35I ‘Adir’ New C-130J Fuselage Trainer for 285 Squadron BAE Systems to continue aviation warfare training support The submarine problem - deeper than meets the eye 07 Apr 2016 ADM writers It’s been said so often but never actually examined in great detail – the Future Submarine Program is strategic for Japan and Australia. In speaking to the submarine community, past and present, what comes through is that cooperation with Japan results in a Future Submarine that can approach the performances of Collins but only with a completely new design and one that will definitely not be regionally superior post 2030. This is alarming and requires pause for thought. The root-cause of this problem is that Japan does not have any technology that is, well, regionally superior. Indeed it is the reverse situation - Japan’s relative submarine capability is improved by the Future Submarine Program but not Australia’s. The Future Submarine is strategic for Japan, but not for Australia. The Australian Government tells us that the next generation of RAN submarines will be regionally superior because they will have higher performances in stealth, sensors, range and endurance, and of course the US-origin combat system and weapons. With superior performances in these areas, the Future Submarine can outmatch any other submarine the RAN might conceivably fight, including the nearly silent nuclear attack submarines emerging from Russia and in the future, China. In the decades to come these submarines will hunt, and be hunted by, Australian submarines and it’s important to note that the RAN may not get to choose who to fight or when – they might choose us. "To say it in plain English, if the Collins were to fight the Soryu today Collins would kill it every time." But what if the international partner for Australia has no better technology than we already have access to? The undeniable logic is the Future Submarine will offer performances no better than the Collins Class Submarine it replaces. An ‘Australianised’ Soryu will not be regionally superior beyond 2030. This is the critical issue. To say it in plain English, if the Collins were to fight the Soryu today Collins would kill it every time. And there is no technology offered by Japan to suggest any evolution of the Soryu can change this situation in the future. None. In lobbying Australia to accept their submarine, Japan has disclosed enough about its own capabilities in open literature to prove this. The Soryu Class, Japan’s most modern submarine, offers no improvement over Collins in any capability area – not stealth, not sonar, not range nor endurance and not combat system or weapon. Moreover, there is no objective evidence that Japan can overcome these problems with a new design. Let's examine the case for the Soryu point by point. Stealth Stealth in submarines is mostly determined by the noise of the submarine, making it vulnerable to detection by the enemy (the noise of machinery, vibration, the flow of water over the hull and the propeller at all speeds) as well as the echo the submarine may return from enemy active sonar. For a submarine to be detected by active sonar its position is generally already localised by an adversary. A Collins class submarine under construction at the ASC facility in Osborne. Credit: ASCA Collins class submarine under construction at the ASC facility in Osborne. Credit: ASC The extent to which the noise generated by on-board machinery is reduced is determined by the vibration of the equipment in the first instance, followed by the effectiveness of acoustic isolation treatments. Submarine designs since the 1980s, including the Collins, isolate vibration by a combination of treatments at each and every interface between the equipment, the hull of the submarine and the deck itself. However at least one technical paper made public by Kawasaki confirms that the Soryu does not have acoustic isolation between the deck and the hull. This problem is clear as the production process described by Kawasaki in its own literature is incompatible with any conceivable method for acoustic isolation of the deck from the hull. Without isolation of the deck from the hull, acoustic isolation is incomplete and will result in higher acoustic signatures and loss of stealth capability. Alarmingly, the acoustic signature of the Soryu is very likely to be higher than that of the Collins and the problem is literally welded in. Fixing the problem is not straight forward as the Soryu's double hull sections constrain the available internal volume for installation of the acoustic systems. Even before the problems of range and endurance are considered, a complete redesign of the Soryu based on technology from outside Japan is required - perhaps Australia will donate this technology to Japan from the Collins? “Every single nut and bolt forward of the thrust block in Soryu needs redesign and none of it is trivial” As the phrase suggests, a double hull creates one small submarine inside a larger one. Only the internal hull, with the smaller diameter, is designed to resist the external seawater pressure. The external hull is comprised of tanks for fuel and ballast. A double hull can save weight but can introduce other problems. Hydrodynamics Stealth is also related to hydrodynamic performances, which seeks to reduce drag and improve energy consumption globally – minimising use of platform equipment and the radiated noise of the submarine. Hydrodynamic performances also create a more uniform flow of water into the propeller improving both its efficiency, cavitation inception speed and other types of radiated noise at all speeds. In this respect both classes have some problems. The Soryu has a very large fin, wide and broad hydroplanes and control surfaces all of which visibly extend beyond the line of the hull from all angles of observation. These are presumably designed for manoeuvrability or are simply a carry-over from previous designs. A second problem with the Soryu is the flank array visibly juts out from the laminar surface of the hull, presumably for better sonar performances or to manage some other integration problem. The Collins flank array is more streamlined. It of course has a very blunt bow caused by a combination of six horizontally aligned torpedo tubes and the high position of the forward cylindrical array, again a result of the quest for higher sonar performances. But the Soryu has the better overall hull form than the Collins. Signature management A submarine can also be detected by the active sonar of an enemy. The return echo strength (or target strength) of both classes is difficult to determine as the performances of acoustics materials (tiles, paints etc) are unknown. However the large hydroplanes and control surfaces of the Soryu again provide reflexive surfaces at all observable aspects, and its double pressure at the fore and aft sections have a negative impact on return echo strength as the incoming acoustic waves can be diffracted by the structures placed between the two hulls. Here the Collins has the advantage. JMSDF) submarine Hakuryu (SS-503) visits Guam for a scheduled port visit. Credit: USN Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Jeffrey Jay PriceJMSDF Soryu-class submarine Hakuryu (SS-503) visits Guam for a scheduled port visit. Credit: USN Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Jeffrey Jay Price Sonar Sensor performance in a submarine is dominated by the performance of the primary sensor, the passive sonar suite. Higher performances are characterised as enabling the submarine to hear fainter noises at further distances away from the submarine with such fidelity that on-board computers and software can detect, classify, track and direct weapons at the enemy. Different types of ships, submarines and even aircraft have dissimilar noise characteristics calling for a combination of sonars within a sonar suite. Expected passive sonar performances are highly related to the overall size and design of the submarine, as these two factors together support the largest possible array antennas, minimise submarine self-noise and other interferences, and provide sufficient power and cooling to the on-board computational systems. Both classes are both equipped with at least three types of main passive sonar arrays: a bow array; flank arrays placed on both sides of the submarine; and a linear array towed streamed aft of the submarine. The performance of a bow array in almost any submarine is most constrained by the limited available surface in the frontal lobe and the hydrodynamic performances (self-noise), particularly at speed. The Collins and the Soryu are probably similar in performance in this area – the Collins with a high-mount Cylindrical Array and the Soryu with a slightly wider hull. Inherent to its mounting on the hull, the performance of a flank array is especially dependant on the acoustic surface of the hull and the self-noise of adjacent ship machinery. Accordingly, the flank array’s performances are determined by how well it is physically integrated with these elements of the submarine. Observing the Soryu, the flank array is clearly compromised whereas the Collins is not. The reduced length of the Soryu’s array, compromised again by avoiding the acoustic reflexion of forward section of the double hull, adversely affects performances and particularly detection at lower frequencies. A complete redesign of the forward section of the submarine into a conventional single hull and new sonar arrays is a solution – the solution already at sea on the Collins today. Range To match the range and endurance of the Collins a completely new design from Japan is needed. The Soryu has a given range of 6,100 nm at 6.5 knots. Australia wants 11,000 nm at 10 knots and to get there every single nut and bolt forward of the thrust block in Soryu needs redesign and none of it is trivial. The underlying problem is the design philosophy in Japan, where incremental change has been introduced into successive classes of submarines over decades, must now be scrapped in favour of radical overhaul. Whether this can be done safely can only be known by the Japanese themselves and perhaps the Australian CEP evaluators. The Collins class has ultimately set a high benchmark for its future replacement. Credit: DefenceThe Collins class has ultimately set a high benchmark for its future replacement. Credit: Defence Propulsion Japan needs to remove the Soryu’s Air Independent Plant (AIP) of four Stirling engines, add seven metres to the length of the ship, completely resize the galley, accommodation and habitability spaces (Japan are the first to confess this problem and their own Navy has complained in public about on-board conditions), add more batteries, diesel fuel and at least one diesel engine and generator and redesign the ballast and trim system. Extending the hull is itself a major change and requires a complete revalidation of the design's underwater handling characteristics and weapons discharge parameters. New major platform equipment will in turn require new main propulsion switchboards and a new power control and distribution system particularly for the new combat system network and new communications equipment. Batteries To achieve the range and endurance requirements Japan says they will move to a new battery technology and have offered a Lithium-Ion (Li-ion) battery in place of a lead-acid battery. Li-Ion batteries have higher performances than lead-acid batteries (about 20 per cent dived endurance and a smaller improvement to indiscretion ratio), but are yet to be deemed safe enough for adoption into submarine service in any country, including Japan. Again, Australia will undoubtedly share the painful lessons we will no doubt learn as the lead customer to Japan's advantage. Combat System The Soryu’s planned life cycle of 20 years, compared to the Collins’s 30 years, requires either faster rates of new submarine production or complete revision of the Soryu asset management plan. Both approaches require more money and long-term commitments to either replace the submarines more frequently or invest more deeply in a long-term sustainment program absent in Japan today. This requires a complete understanding of the engineering approach needed to support long-range and long-of-life submarines – something which will be provided from Australia to Japan for free. And of course there is the AN/BYG-1 combat system and Mk-48 ADCAP torpedo. Both are at sea and proven in the Collins today and are yet to be integrated into Soryu. Australia is the lead customer again, not Japan. "It is inconceivable that the USN would operate a submarine with inferior performances in order to accommodate an ally’s request." Conclusion The final footnote is addressing the perception the US favours a strategic tie-up with Australia and Japan. And of course, the strategic link between the US, Sweden and Australia, as proven in the Collins, has been discounted from the beginning of the CEP. Every day the media reports that the US Government is "backgrounding" Australian officials, journalists and political players that a Japan solution is preferred. Officially, the US says it is neutral and this is appropriate. Consider the reverse situation: it is inconceivable that the USN would operate a submarine with inferior performances in order to accommodate an ally’s request. Equally, the ally in question would be regarded as grossly interfering in US sovereignty. It would cause anger. The problem is far more serious for Japan and the US. Japanese mishandling of the Australian opportunity has now verified that not one but both principle allies of the US in the Asia Pacific need international partners to go to the next level in submarine capability. We must not be deceived by wishing away every Japanese problem with money, time, goodwill or the US relationship. Forget culture and language problems, as serious as they are. The problem is Australia will not be regionally superior with Japan and the root-cause of this problem is lack of submarine technology and know-how in Japan.
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    214?  /无内容 - pacificsalmon 04/08/16 (397)
      反正就是组装希特勒的潜艇,为了再出口补贴巨大的差价  /无内容 - eachus 04/08/16 (414)
  杂志版 - 古宇庙 04/08/16 (1519)
    披露苍龙的浮阀不成功,不能静音,双层压力壳对声纳性能不利  /无内容 - 古宇庙 04/08/16 (591)
      知道日本潜艇不好,但没想到如此不堪。  /无内容 - 古宇庙 04/08/16 (473)
        不太信啊,澳大利亚又不是傻瓜,还着急引进苍龙呢  /无内容 - 无为 04/08/16 (463)
          你不懂英文?文章说要引进苍龙吗?  /无内容 - 古宇庙 04/08/16 (490)
            确实英文不好,还老花,像这样大段大段的小字英文不看 - 无为 04/08/16 (615)
              "澳洲引进苍龙"是一种基本知识?  /无内容 - 古宇庙 04/08/16 (471)
            文章说的不是非常清楚,但事实是澳大利亚的确是要引进苍龙的设计 - cph 04/08/16 (619)
              原文不是这个意思。杂志文章写得很清楚 - spiro 04/09/16 (604)
                澳大利亚潜艇的事情,不是一篇匿名作者写的文章就能交代完 - cph 04/09/16 (572)
                  不是匿名作者,是"澳洲国防杂志编辑文章",署名就是"ADM"  /无内容 - 古宇庙 04/09/16 (529)
                    ADM不是人名,是杂志名字的缩写。这是一篇没有署名的文章。 - cph 04/09/16 (489)
                      署名"人民日报,ADM"也是一种署名,并非匿名。  /无内容 - 古宇庙 04/09/16 (472)
                  他说的是文章的论点,我说的也是。你的观点是你的观点, 但不是 - spiro 04/09/16 (515)
                    不愿了解整件事情的背景而只“讨论”一篇文章里的论点是浪费时间 - cph 04/09/16 (478)
                      你啥背景也没提供,只是盲目反对。作者好歹有具体理由  /无内容 - 古宇庙 04/09/16 (485)
              另外你故意误译,这是原文 - 古宇庙 04/08/16 (556)
              作者是引用川崎重工自己的说法,所以吃酸葡萄都是你自己  /无内容 - 古宇庙 04/08/16 (491)
                川崎重工没有说过。你点进那个link自己看。 - cph 04/08/16 (718)
                  川崎自己说的建艇过程不可能有浮阀,这是要点。  /无内容 - 古宇庙 04/08/16 (501)
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