记者Steve Inskeep: What is preventing an end to the trade war with the United States, if anything?

崔大使: Well, first, we certainly don't want to have a trade war with the United States or with any other country.

记者：You have one.

崔大使：Yeah, this is very unfortunate but we want to solve it through  negotiation and consultation between the two sides. But in order for the  negotiation, the consultation to succeed, we do need goodwill and good  faith from both sides. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

记者：Are you seeing goodwill or good faith from the United States?

崔大使：Well, to tell you the truth, not sufficiently.

记者：What is the evidence of that?

崔大使：Well, for instance, the U.S. position keeps changing all the time so  we don't know exactly what the U.S. would want as priorities. And  number two, I think there's been some attempt on the U.S. side to force  something like, the U.S. will get 100 percent and China will get zero. I  don't think this is fair. I don't think this is possible. We are ready to make a deal. We are ready to make some compromise, but it needs the goodwill from both sides. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

语音：

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/03/654084691/china-wants-to-end-trade-war-but-u-s-position-keeps-changing-ambassador-says

文本：

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/03/654088777/transcript-nprs-interview-with-china-s-ambassador-to-the-u-s

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Transcript: NPR's Interview With China's Ambassador To The U.S.

In a wide-ranging interview with Morning Edition's Steve Inskeep, Cui  Tiankai, China's ambassador to the U.S., discusses trade and openness  between the two countries, better understanding President Trump, China's  social credit system. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Steve Inskeep: What is preventing an end to the trade war with the United States, if anything?

Ambassador Cui Tiankai: Well, first, we certainly don't want to have a  trade war with the United States or with any other country.

You have one.

Yeah, this is very unfortunate but we want to solve it through  negotiation and consultation between the two sides. But in order for the  negotiation, the consultation to succeed, we do need goodwill and good  faith from both sides. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Are you seeing goodwill or good faith from the United States?

Well, to tell you the truth, not sufficiently.
China Wants To End Trade War But 'U.S. Position Keeps Changing,' Ambassador Says
World
China Wants To End Trade War But 'U.S. Position Keeps Changing,' Ambassador Says

What is the evidence of that?

Well, for instance, the U.S. position keeps changing all the time so we  don't know exactly what the U.S. would want as priorities. And number  two, I think there's been some attempt on the U.S. side to force  something like, the U.S. will get 100 percent and China will get zero. I  don't think this is fair. I don't think this is possible. We are ready  to make a deal. We are ready to make some compromise, but it needs the  goodwill from both sides. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Ambassador, you used the word priorities. I'm reminded that a few months  ago the U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin went to China for some  negotiations and it was said that the United States made a very wide  range of demands that were rejected out of hand by China. Is that what  you mean by priorities, that you want the United States to pick a few  items rather than demanding every complaint be fixed at once? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Well, actually in the last few months there have been contacts between  the two governments and from the U.S. side, not only the treasury  secretary but the secretary of commerce, USTR and others also went to  China and we also have very senior people come here. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Sure.

And there's been a lot of discussion in many areas. And we offered to  reduce the trade deficit of the United States, for instance. And we also  presented a very good proposal to the U.S. side about the further  reform and opening up in China, some of the so-called structural issues.  We are ready to work on the issues. Then I think more than once we had  some tentative agreement between the two working teams. Then just  overnight the tentative agreement was rejected and the demand from U.S.  changed. So this is very confusing, and this is making things very  difficult. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

You must try to calculate what happened there. Do you believe that U.S.  negotiators went back to the president and he was not satisfied?

Well, we would like to have somebody to tell us the real story.

That perhaps leads to another question. What is your method, and I  assume you must have one, for trying to determine what the president of  the United States thinks or is thinking at any given moment?

Well, we'll have to look at the policy statements, we have to look at  the way what the U.S. team would tell us on the negotiating table. But I  think that we still need more good faith. If people tell you one story  one day and another story, a very different story, another day, then you  are confused. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Do you follow the president's Twitter feed?

Well, I think that many people are following

Millions, sure.

So we are just doing the same.

But do you find meaningful information there? Some of his political  allies will, say, disregard that, his actual policies are something  else.

Honestly, I think if it's written by the president, it has to be meaningful. People have to take them seriously.

There was a news story here suggesting that foreign embassies and  consulates were buying large numbers of copies of a Bob Woodward book  about the inner workings of the White House. Is the Chinese embassy  filled with copies of Bob Woodward's book? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

You see there has been such a heated discussion about this book in the  American media. Naturally people would like to get a copy and see what  happens, what is written in the book. Maybe this is very good for the  publisher. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Is that a yes? You have lots of copies of Fear around the Chinese embassy?

I don't know.

How about you?

It's really up to the individuals whether they want to buy it or not. I  certainly have a copy. Anything that is discussed here in the American  media we have to follow, we have to have some understanding of it, what  happens. Because maybe people in the United States are not fully aware  of this, but American policies do have a larger impact on the rest of  the world. So I have talked to many other ambassadors here, ambassadors  from other countries, large or small. We all share the same concern. We  also, we — all of us want to have a better understanding of what is  happening here and what it would mean for us. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Do you feel you understand the president at this point?

Well, I hope that we could have a better understanding.

That's a no I guess, you don't quite understand him.

I think between any two countries or even between any two individuals,  understanding is a process, because the world is changing, countries are  changing, people are changing. Today you have a good understanding and  tomorrow things have changed. You have to have a good, a better  understanding. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Matt Pottinger, a National Security Council aide in the White House  came, if I'm not mistaken, to an event for China's national day, and  gave a little talk in which he said that the keyword between the United  States and other nations such as China shouldn't really be cooperation  it should be competition. He wants to compete. He didn't say make an  enemy of China but he said competition. Is he right? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

I think between any two countries, maybe especially between China and  the United States, there is a certain degree of competition. This is  only natural. But there's also a much larger need for cooperation. This  is also the reality in today's world. Our two countries together with  other countries are faced with so many common challenges, the so-called  global challenges or global issues, and no country can really handle all  these things all by itself. We have to cooperate whether we like it or  not. This is a growing mutual need and a common interest. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

But we may be at a point where the United States and China are not  inclined to cooperate on some very high-profile issues. You disagree  about the U.S. role in Asia to give an example. You disagree about what  to do about Iran and the nuclear deal. You disagree about what to do  about trade. Perhaps we're entering a period of competition. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Well, as far as China is concerned that we are always ready to cooperate  with the United States even if we have differences and maybe just  because we have differences the need for cooperation is even bigger. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

What have you thought about as there have been news reports that the  administration has considered proposals to ban Chinese students from  studying in American universities?

I think if this is true, I think that this is a very dangerous situation  because so many Chinese students are studying here and a growing number  of American students are studying in China. Such people-to-people  contact would be the real foundation of friendship and the cooperation  between the two great countries. And I could give you a very specific  example. You see in the state of Indiana... ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Indiana, Indianapolis, where I'm from. OK.

Yeah, there's a children's museum.

Sure, it's a great one.

It's a great one. And a few years ago the museum hosted a big, big event  on Chinese culture. It was a very, it was a great success. And I was  invited to address the opening ceremony and I had a meeting with  then-Gov. Mike Pence. Gov. Pence was a great supporter to such  people-to-people intercultural exchanges. It's certainly a benefit to  both, people of both countries. And the local people, they were so  enthusiastic about such cultural events. So why should we cut off all  these ties, all these natural ties between the two peoples? ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Would you encourage greater openness going the other way? If American  scholars who may have controversial opinions want to visit China, if  American journalists want to go to sensitive areas like Tibet. Would you  encourage greater openness on China's part? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

You see, we are open to American students, professors, journalists or  scholars. Of course, for some other places like Tibet because it's very  high altitude and the climate could be very tough there.

Very high altitude?

Yeah.

I think American journalists and scholars can handle the altitude. I mean, we have high altitudes in the United States.

Well, not everybody could quickly get used to such climate and natural  conditions. Even for Chinese. Many of them would not feel very well once  they are there. And also the local, we have to protect the local  environment. We should have some limit on the number of people outside  visitors every year. Otherwise the burden on the environment will be too  heavy. So we have to take care of all these things. If we can take good  care of all these things we certainly welcome American visitors to go  there. I understand for the last few American ambassadors, all of them  visited Tibet. We are now working for the visit by Ambassador Branstad. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Terry Branstad, President Trump's ambassador. You want him to go to Tibet. What about Uighur areas?

He wanted to go to Tibet, and we would welcome him.

What about Uighur areas in far northwest China?

Well, this is part of China. So the whole country is open to the rest of  the world, certainly this part is also open. But honestly, in this part  of China we have a particular problem or challenge that that is  terrorism. There are violent extremist groups. I'm sure some people are  there, some attempt to create a situation like the ISIS in that part of  China. This is very dangerous. This is a main challenge, the main threat  to stability to the well-being of the people there and the government  has to do something about that. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

There seemed to be very widespread actions against the populace with the  concern about terrorism given as the reason. What have you thought  about as the United Nations has said that hundreds of thousands of  people in Uighur areas have been put into camps? ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

You see very often widespread stories may not be the true stories. They  will be very far away from the truth. I think whatever we are doing in  that part of China is for the well-being and safety and security of the  people there, is to protect large interests of the people there. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Are you putting people in camps to do that?

It's not, you see, first of all, we have to take a measure to make sure that groups like ISIS

People will be listening carefully to your words because you can speak  so well and you're so diplomatic. They may hear you saying that, yes,  there are camps, and it's a place where people are educated. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

No, I'm not saying there are camps.

Are you saying there are not?

I'm not saying there are camps. I think of their efforts to help people  to learn skills, techniques to build up their economic capability and so  on. And of course we have to take measures to prevent terrorism from  spreading all over the place. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Let me ask about another measure that could be seen as a security  measure across the country. Americans have read something in some cases  about what's called the social credit system. What is it?

I think we now have maybe unfortunately growing crimes in terms of  finance and there's been cases of cheating and fraud, all these things.  So if you look at Chinese media, there are reports of senior citizens  being cheated. They've been ripped off of their lifelong savings. So we  have to do something to protect such a vulnerable people. And that's why  I think that is part of the reason why people want to have a better  social credit system. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

I think that you're referring to the fact that the social credit system  seems to have begun as a kind of blacklist for people who have conducted  inappropriate financial activities.

Right.

And it's become something that follows you around, right? The government  knows who you are and you might be banned from travel. You might be  banned from getting on a train or a plane.

Well, I think if people here in the United States, if you don't pay your  debt to the bank, if you don't pay for a credit card, then the banks  will have a record.

Sure.

That makes it very difficult for any individual with such a record to  have loans from banks. We are just doing the same lesson. Maybe we're  just learning it from you.

But you might also ban someone from travel. I don't think a bank would do that here in the United States.

I think there have been cases of very few individuals who made secret threats to other passengers on trains on airplanes.

If they're seen as a threat. OK.

I think I have read media reports here.

Oh, there are no-fly lists in the United States of people who are suspected of some terrorist connection.

Not suspected, I have seen media reports here about people making  secrets threats to other passengers on the airplane and they are taken  away by the police.

If people speak in the wrong way on the airplane, sure.

If they shout for instance.

Yeah.

If they make a threat to other, they get taken away by the police here.

Yeah, but I'm asking about something else where someone is on a black  list because of a financial issue. And so they can't travel. That  happens right.

Well, if people do have a bad record whether in terms of finance or  making secret threat to other people, they have to be punished. But  there's a time limit, maybe for six months or maybe longer. It's not  lifelong. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Could this system be extended to cover also speech? Someone's social  media postings are monitored and they might find any number of  consequences in every part of their lives if they say the wrong thing. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

I don't think people can do all these at random. They have to follow,  they have to do everything in accordance with China's constitution and  Chinese laws. If there is a clear provision in the laws, then they have  to enforce it. If it's prohibited by the laws, nobody can do it. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

There is a lot of speech that would be off limits in China more so than in the United States.

Well, if you get on the Chinese social media you could see how what kind of freedom we have. All kinds of talks on social media.

There is a robust debate without a doubt. But there's also certain terms  that get banned on social media that disappear from social media.

You see, I think we're both our countries — maybe also other countries —  are faced with a problem of like child pornography and spread of  terrorist ideas, all these things, very bad things. Criminal things on  social media. And this is challenging for all the governments to make  sure that it will not hurt the well-being of the people, of our ordinary  citizens. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

One more question along these lines and then I want to move on. Some  analysts will presume that China's government, strong and organized  though it is, is somewhat afraid of its people and what it will do. Is  the government afraid of the people in China? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

I think the first thing for our government, the most important thing for  the government is accountability to its people. We always believe that  our first, our most important task is to make sure that our people will  be able to have a better life. So ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

You said a better life. In the United States we could argue about this  but one might argue that the fundamental value in the United States is  equality and that another fundamental value is freedom or liberty.  You're saying that providing a better life, the government providing a  better life for its people, is a more fundamental value in China. Is  that correct? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Well, the task of the government to be more exact is to enable the  people to pursue a better life. It's not given by the government to the  people, the people have the right to pursue a better life. And the  government's responsibility is to make sure people will have the  capability, will be able to enjoy such a right. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Let me ask also ambassador, about the United States direct relations  with China beyond trade. What in your view is an appropriate role and  appropriate position for the United States in East Asia, in your region  in the waters around there and in nations around in that area? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

You see, both China and United States, we are Pacific countries. We're on the opposite side of the Pacific Ocean.

Sure.

And we believe that the Pacific Ocean is not something that will  separate us but something rather that will link us, will connect us. And  we certainly recognize the interest of the United States and the role  the U.S. has played historically in our region. We welcome that. We look  at the United States as a major partner in our region, but at the same  time we hope that the United States would also recognize that the  regional countries including China have our own legitimate interests.  Maybe the U.S. should learn to have a better understanding of our  history, our culture, our needs and would pay more respect to that. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Is the South China Sea, which I will remind people is an area where  China claims bits of land and China fundamentally claims the waters, and  an area where the United States has been sending naval vessels, is the  South China Sea China's? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

We have sovereignty over many of the islands in the South China Sea. And  this has been a longstanding position of China despite a change of  government, you see, in 1949. And actually at the end of the Second  World War, the then-Chinese government took back these islands from  occupation of Japan with the help of American naval ships. It was  American naval ships that sent Chinese troops to take back these islands  from Japan. So we have a longstanding sovereignty over these islands,  but we are also aware there are some territorial disputes. And now we're  ready to work with other countries to have negotiations to have a final  solution to such disputes. We understand this will take a long time,  but in the meantime it is our intention to maintain stability there.  That's why we are working on a code of conduct with the ASEAN countries. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

The other Southeast Asian nations, right.

Yeah, we're making good progress in this regard.

A code of conduct meaning means of living a means of operating in and around the South China?

It means before we are able to solve the territorial disputes, we should  work together to maintain stability, to try to engage in some joint  development of resources there, to keep a good order in the region. So I  just hope that the United States will join our efforts, will be  helpful, not try to disrupt the process towards peaceful negotiations. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Is the negotiation you describe something like this: China claims the  waters, China claims the natural resources under the waters and might  undertake joint development with the Philippines if the Philippines  recognizes China's claim. Is that where you're going with this? ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

I think that we cannot make comments of a very general nature like this.

OK.

We have to look at the specific islands, specific reefs and decide which  country has the sovereignty, then in accordance with the UN Convention  on the Law of the Sea, what territorial water you could have, what kind  of exclusive economic zone you could have. It's very specific. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Of course you cannot predict the future any better than I can, but you  must make assumptions I presume and your government must make  assumptions about the next few years and in that light I want to ask  about North Korea. Do you believe that North Korea will ever give up its  nuclear arsenal? ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

We have been working very hard towards that goal. We want to have a  clear denuclearization of the whole Korean peninsula. We want to  maintain peace and stability there. This has been China's goal all  along. And fortunately for the last few months there's been some  progress between us and the DPRK toward that goal and we would support  and encourage further progress towards that. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

You just said denuclearization of the entire Korean peninsula, North and  South Korea. What does that mean for the United States? We've heard  that term many times but what is it that the United States is supposed  to do or give up on the southern side? ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Well, my recommendation would be the United States should continue its  talks with the North Koreans and try to take steps to encourage the DPRK  to take further steps towards denuclearization.

I just mean I don't understand what on a basic level, as a layman, what  that term means for the United States. The United States has a nuclear  arsenal and is allied with South Korea and isn't likely to give up its  thousands of nuclear weapons. So what does denuclearization mean? Just  no American nuclear weapons in South Korea which there aren't at the  moment anyway? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Not only no American nuclear weapons but the DPRK should not have  nuclear weapons either. That's very clear. But as for the definition of  the idea denuclearization, I hope for the United States and the North  Koreans could reach some agreement on this. And you see Secretary Pompeo  is going to North Korea again. I hope he has some clear idea to present  to the North Koreans. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Do you presume that the North Koreans are sincere about being willing to  give up their nuclear weapons as part of some larger agreement?

I think they are serious in the change of policy. They are telling  everybody that they want to focus on their economic development. I think  the need is clearly there. They have to do a better job with regard to  the economy and the North Korean people certainly want a better life and  it's in the interest of all the countries concerned that we should have  peace and stability on the Korean peninsula. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

You said serious. You think they're serious. Meaning you don't agree  with those who think that Kim Jong Un is simply playing the Trump  administration, trying to get some benefits out of this and string them  along. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

I think that they are serious about this policy change. Besides, it seems to me that President Trump believes that.

One final thing ambassador and I'll let you go. You've been very, very  generous with your time and I'm very grateful that you've put up with  all the questions. Thank you. We as a network have been reporting on  China's involvement around the world, economic and otherwise, in Africa.  There was a story on [Wednesday] about an effort to build a city with  Chinese money and Morocco. What is China's goal beyond its own borders —  10 years from now, 20 or 30 years from now? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Well, for China, maybe for a long, long time to come, our priority, our  most important task is still to run our own country well, make sure  people continue to live in peace, they will enjoy social stability, they  will have a better life, and they have a better future to look forward  to. This is the most important task for China, for the government and  for the people. But we also understand China cannot develop and  modernize in isolation. We have to build strong ties with the rest of  the world. We have to further integrate into the global economy and the  global governance, and we are ready to take up more responsibilities and  make greater contribution in this regard. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Let's talk about the form that that would take and I'm thinking about  history. There was a time when Britain spread its influence around the  world and the way that it commonly did that was by taking over  countries, establishing colonies, dominating places. There has been a  time when the United States has spread its interest around the world and  the United States consciously concluded that for the most part the  United States would not try to take over territory but would try to get  other parts of the world to play by the same rules in an international  system. That is one way to summarize the U.S. approach. What is the  Chinese approach? ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

If you look at the Chinese culture, Chinese history, I think you would  understand it has never been the intention of China to acquire other  peoples' territory. You see, 2,000 years ago we build the Great Wall  just to protect ourselves, not to invade, although such walls may not  work but now it's a tourist spot anyway. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Very attractive, yes.

And a few hundred years ago in the Ming dynasty we did have the largest  and the strongest fleet in the world at the time. The fleet visited many  countries on more than one occasion but they never set up colonies,  they were just promoting trade. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Meaning that you do not see any historic parallel for China taking over  territory but how much influence would Chinese planners or national  security officials aspire to have in Africa? How much influence would  you aspire to have in Europe as you build trade ties with Europe for  example. ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

I think as countries develop trade and other ties between them naturally  there will be a mutual influence. For instance, American influence in  China has been growing for the last few decades. That's why so many  Chinese students are coming here because they know that you have some of  the best universities in the world. They want to study there. And their  parents are paying for their tuition and living costs. So I think such  people-to-people ties will naturally have hopefully a very positive  influence on all everybody involved. This is a very good thing. Such a  broad understanding and the strong ties between people will be the real  foundation, not only for relations between China and United States but  also for world peace. ...华岳论坛 - "http://hua-yue.net"

Has President Trump's unsettling of relations with traditional U.S.  allies created an opportunity for China to make new friends or to build  influence?

Whatever Washington D.C. is doing we will continue to develop friendly  relations with the rest of the world. Maybe you see European countries,  other Asian countries, countries in Africa, Latin America — but  hopefully we'll make more mutual friends. It's not a zero-sum game.  Chinese friends could be American friends and I think our two countries  have to make sure that we have more and more mutual friends. We don't  ask other people to take sides. Why should we do that? ...华岳论坛 - "http://washeng.net"

Ambassador, thank you for coming by.

Thank you, thank you for your time.

I really enjoyed this conversation.