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中美印航空发动机涡轮前温度和推力相关性比较
送交者:  2025年03月14日15:29:51 于 [世界游戏论坛] 发送悄悄话

If you are referring to turbine front temperature (TFT) and its correlation with maximum power output, here’s the general relationship:

  1. Higher Turbine Front Temperature (TFT) → More Power Output

    • In gas turbines and jet engines, higher TFT allows for greater thermal efficiency and more energy extraction, leading to higher thrust (in aviation) or power generation (in power plants).

    • However, turbine materials have temperature limits, and exceeding them causes damage.

  2. Material Constraints

    • The maximum TFT is limited by the turbine blade materials (nickel-based superalloys, ceramic coatings).

    • Modern turbines use advanced cooling (film cooling, thermal barrier coatings) to push TFT higher while protecting materials.

  3. Efficiency and Power Trade-off

    • Increasing TFT improves thermal efficiency (Brayton cycle), allowing more work output per unit of fuel.

    • But it also increases cooling requirements and maintenance costs.

  4. Practical Limits

    • Most advanced jet engines today operate at TFTs of 1,600–1,800°C, close to the melting point of turbine blades.

    • The GE XA100 adaptive cycle engine, for example, aims to increase TFT while improving cooling efficiency.

If you meant something else by "turban front temperature," please clarify.

You said:
GE 404 with ... to produce 71 kn max
ChatGPT said:

The General Electric F404 engine, used in various fighter jets like the Tejas, F/A-18 Hornet, and others, has different variants with slightly different thrust ratings.

For example:

  • F404-GE-402 (used in F/A-18 Hornet)

    • Max afterburner thrust: 79 kN

    • Dry thrust: 48 kN

  • F404-GE-IN20 (used in HAL Tejas)

    • Max afterburner thrust: 84 kN

    • Dry thrust: 53.9 kN

If you're referring to a 71 kN version, that could be an intermediate power setting or a specific variant with a lower afterburning thrust.

Would you like to compare it with alternatives like the GE F414 or WS-13?

You said:
so what is the TFT for GE 404?
ChatGPT said:

The Turbine Front Temperature (TFT) for the GE F404 engine varies depending on the specific variant and operating conditions. However, typical values are:

  • Max Takeoff / Military Power (Dry thrust): ~1,350–1,450 K

  • Max Afterburner (Full thrust): ~1,700–1,850 K

The TFT (Turbine Front Temperature) is a crucial parameter because it directly affects engine performance, durability, and thrust output. Higher TFT allows for greater thrust but also requires better cooling and high-temperature materials to prevent turbine damage.

For comparison:

  • GE F414 (F/A-18E/F, Tejas Mk2, Gripen E): ~1,850–1,900 K

  • WS-13 (China's JF-17 engine): ~1,750–1,850 K

Would you like to compare this with other engines like the WS-10, WS-15, or AL-31F?

You said:
what kind of alloy make  GE 404 stand 1700-1850K?
ChatGPT said:

The GE F404 engine withstands temperatures of 1,700–1,850 K using advanced nickel-based superalloys and thermal barrier coatings (TBCs) in critical components like turbine blades, vanes, and combustor liners. Here’s a breakdown of the key materials:

1. Turbine Blades & Vanes: Nickel-Based Superalloys

The high-pressure turbine (HPT) operates in extreme heat and must resist thermal creep, oxidation, and fatigue. GE F404 turbine blades are typically made of:

  • Inconel 718 (Ni-Fe-Cr superalloy) – for moderate temperature resistance

  • Rene 80, Rene 125 – high-temperature Ni-based superalloys with excellent creep resistance

  • Mar-M-247 – used in more advanced variants for enhanced oxidation and thermal resistance

Key Elements in Superalloys:

  • Nickel (Ni) – base metal for heat resistance

  • Cobalt (Co) – improves high-temperature strength

  • Chromium (Cr) – oxidation and corrosion resistance

  • Aluminum (Al) & Titanium (Ti) – strengthening elements

  • Tantalum (Ta), Rhenium (Re), and Hafnium (Hf) – added for high-temp performance

2. Single-Crystal & Directionally Solidified Blades

  • Modern turbine blades use single-crystal (SC) technology to eliminate grain boundaries, increasing durability at high temperatures.

  • The F404 may not fully use SC blades, but newer engines like the F414, WS-15, and F135 rely on them for even higher temperature resistance.

3. Thermal Barrier Coatings (TBCs)

  • Yttria-Stabilized Zirconia (YSZ) – ceramic coating applied to turbine blades and vanes to reduce metal surface temperature by ~200 K.

  • MCrAlY bond coats (where M = Ni or Co) – used under TBCs to prevent oxidation and wear.

4. Cooling Technology

  • Film cooling & internal convection cooling – allows parts to withstand extreme temperatures by channeling cool air around them.

Comparison with Other Engines

EngineMax Turbine Temperature (K)Cooling TechMaterials
GE F404~1,700–1,850 KCooled Ni-based superalloysInconel 718, Rene alloys, YSZ TBC
GE F414~1,850–1,900 KAdvanced TBC, single-crystal bladesSC Ni-based superalloys
WS-10~1,800–1,900 KSingle-crystal techChinese-developed Ni-based alloys
WS-15~2,100 K4th-gen SC alloy, better TBCRhenium-enhanced Ni-based alloys

Would you like to see how India's Kaveri or Uttam engine project compares in materials?

You said:
do you know TFT for India Kevari engine?
ChatGPT said:

The Kaveri engine (developed by India’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment - GTRE) has struggled with Turbine Front Temperature (TFT) limitations due to material and cooling challenges.

Kaveri Engine's Estimated Turbine Front Temperature (TFT):

  • Original goal: 1,700–1,750 K

  • Current capability: ~1,650 K (based on available data)

  • Modern fighter engine requirement: 1,850–2,100 K

Why is Kaveri’s TFT lower?

  1. Lack of advanced single-crystal turbine blades

    • Kaveri still relies on directionally solidified or polycrystalline blades, which cannot withstand 1,800+ K like modern Western and Chinese engines.

  2. Material limitations

    • India lacks domestic production of advanced nickel-based superalloys (like Rene 125 or CMSX-4).

    • Currently, India relies on alloys like Inconel 718, which is outdated for high-performance fighter jets.

  3. Cooling technology is not as advanced

    • Kaveri lacks the high-efficiency film cooling and TBC coatings that GE, Safran, or WS-15 engines use.

How does Kaveri compare to other fighter engines?

EngineTFT (K)Max Thrust (Dry / Wet)Key Issue
Kaveri (GTRE)~1,650 K52 kN / 81 kNInsufficient heat resistance & thrust
GE F404 (Tejas Mk1)~1,750–1,850 K54 kN / 85 kN1980s design but reliable
GE F414 (Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA Mk1)~1,850–1,900 K64 kN / 98 kNBetter materials & cooling
WS-10 (J-10C, J-11B, J-16)~1,800–1,900 K76 kN / 130 kN3rd-gen single-crystal blades
WS-15 (J-20, J-35 future)~2,100 K108 kN / 180 kN4th-gen SC blades & rhenium alloys

Can India improve Kaveri?

  • India is working with Safran (France) to develop a 110 kN thrust engine for AMCA with better materials and higher TFT (~1,900+ K).

  • Without single-crystal technology, Kaveri will never match engines like F414, WS-10, or WS-15.

Would you like details on India's Uttam engine project or Safran-India collaboration?

You said:
what about the best F135 engine in the list?
ChatGPT said:

F135 Engine (Used in F-35) – Turbine Front Temperature (TFT) & Performance

The Pratt & Whitney F135 engine is currently the most powerful fighter jet engine in operational service.

F135 Engine Specs:

  • Turbine Front Temperature (TFT): ~2,200 K (estimated)

  • Max Thrust:

    • Dry thrust: ~125 kN

    • Afterburner thrust: ~191 kN (F-35A)

    • F-35B STOVL mode: ~180 kN (with shaft-driven lift fan)

Why is the F135 More Advanced?

  1. Extreme TFT (~2,200 K) due to superior materials:

    • Uses 4th-generation single-crystal turbine blades.

    • Made from rhenium-based superalloys (better than WS-10, F414, or AL-31).

    • Advanced thermal barrier coatings (TBCs) to withstand extreme heat.

  2. Superior cooling technology:

    • The Adaptive Engine Transition Program (AETP) variant (XA101) aims for even better thermal efficiency.

    • Efficient film cooling and advanced ceramic matrix composites (CMC) allow it to sustain higher temperatures without blade melting.

  3. High Bypass Ratio & Fuel Efficiency

    • Unlike F414 or WS-10, F135 has a higher bypass ratio (~0.57 vs. ~0.30 for older engines).

    • More fuel-efficient while providing unmatched thrust levels.

Comparison with Other Fighter Jet Engines (TFT & Thrust)

EngineTFT (K)Dry Thrust (kN)Afterburner Thrust (kN)Key Features
Kaveri (GTRE)~1,650 K52 kN81 kNLacks single-crystal blades
GE F404 (Tejas Mk1)~1,750–1,850 K54 kN85 kNOlder but reliable
GE F414 (Tejas Mk2, AMCA Mk1)~1,850–1,900 K64 kN98 kNUsed in Gripen & Super Hornet
WS-10 (J-10C, J-16, J-20 initial)~1,800–1,900 K76 kN130 kN3rd-gen single-crystal
WS-15 (J-20, future J-35)~2,100 K108 kN180 kN4th-gen SC blades
F135 (F-35 all variants)~2,200 K125 kN191 kNMost powerful jet engine in service
XA101 (Next-gen for NGAD, F-35 upgrade)>2,200 KClassifiedClassified (~220 kN expected)Variable-cycle engine, next-gen adaptive thrust

How Does F135 Compare to WS-15?

  • F135 has slightly higher TFT (~2,200 K vs. 2,100 K for WS-15).

  • F135 produces more thrust in dry mode (125 kN vs. 108 kN for WS-15).

  • WS-15 is slightly lighter & optimized for a twin-engine setup (J-20).

  • F135 is currently more mature and reliable, but WS-15 has closed the gap.

Future Upgrades (XA101 vs. WS-15 Evolution)

  • The XA101 (AETP) aims for higher efficiency & thrust (~220 kN).

  • China is developing an improved WS-15, possibly reaching 200 kN thrust.

Would you like a more detailed F135 vs. WS-15 breakdown?

You said:
if you can ?
ChatGPT said:

F135 vs. WS-15: A Detailed Breakdown

The Pratt & Whitney F135 (used in the F-35) and the Shenyang WS-15 (used in the J-20) are the most powerful operational jet engines from the U.S. and China, respectively. Below is a detailed comparison of their thrust, turbine front temperature (TFT), materials, cooling systems, and future developments.


1. Key Specifications: F135 vs. WS-15

FeatureF135 (U.S.)WS-15 (China)
Generation5th-gen5th-gen
Max Thrust (Afterburner)191 kN (F-35A)180 kN (J-20)
Dry Thrust (Military Power)125 kN108 kN
Turbine Front Temperature (TFT)~2,200 K~2,100 K
Bypass Ratio0.57:10.40-0.45:1
Fan Diameter1.168 m1.080 m
Compression Ratio28:126-27:1 (est.)
Thrust-to-Weight Ratio~11.1:1~10.5:1
Materials Used4th-gen single-crystal superalloys + ceramic matrix composites (CMCs)3rd-4th gen single-crystal superalloys (rhenium-based)
Reliability & MaturityIn full production, proven in combatStill in early service (J-20)

2. Performance & Power Comparison

  • F135 produces ~6% more dry thrust than WS-15 (125 kN vs. 108 kN), meaning it provides better sustained performance without afterburner use.

  • F135 has ~6% more afterburning thrust (191 kN vs. 180 kN), giving the F-35 more short-term acceleration.

  • WS-15 is optimized for a twin-engine setup (J-20), while F135 is a single-engine design (F-35).


3. Turbine Front Temperature (TFT) & Materials

  • F135 operates at ~2,200 K, which is among the highest of any operational jet engine.

  • WS-15 operates at ~2,100 K, which is slightly lower but still extremely high.

  • F135 uses advanced ceramic matrix composites (CMCs) in hot sections, reducing weight and improving heat resistance.

  • WS-15 relies on rhenium-based single-crystal superalloys, but it is unclear if China's CMCs are as advanced as the U.S. versions.


4. Cooling & Efficiency

  • F135 has an advanced thermal barrier coating (TBC) system and adaptive cooling, which allows it to sustain higher operating temperatures for longer durations.

  • WS-15 also has advanced TBC coatings, but cooling efficiency is still being tested in long-term operations.

  • F135 has a higher bypass ratio (~0.57 vs. 0.40-0.45 for WS-15), meaning it is more fuel-efficient in cruise conditions.

  • WS-15 is designed for high-speed combat performance, sacrificing some fuel efficiency for power.


5. Stealth & Infrared (IR) Signature

  • F135 has better IR suppression, designed for the F-35’s stealth.

  • WS-15 is powerful but may have higher IR emissions, making J-20 more visible to heat-seeking missiles.


6. Reliability & Maturity

  • F135 is fully operational and mass-produced with thousands of flight hours.

  • WS-15 only recently entered service (~2023-2024) and still has reliability concerns.


7. Future Developments: XA101 vs. WS-15 Evolution

  • The U.S. is developing the Pratt & Whitney XA101 (Next-Gen Adaptive Engine), expected to replace the F135 in future fighters. It will have:

    • Thrust ~220 kN

    • Even higher TFT (~2,300 K)

    • Variable cycle technology for fuel efficiency and extra power

  • China is working on an improved WS-15 variant, with possible:

    • Thrust ~200 kN

    • Better cooling and thermal efficiency


8. Overall Verdict: Which Is Better?

  • F135 is currently more powerful, reliable, and fuel-efficient.

  • WS-15 is slightly behind but closing the gap rapidly.

  • For single-engine jets, F135 is superior. For twin-engine setups, WS-15 is competitive.

Would you like an even deeper analysis on adaptive engines (XA101 vs. WS-15 upgrades)?


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